2020-09-09: Mind Lessons - The Second - Bobbi

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Mind Lessons, The Second (Bobbi)
Vic visits Bobbi at the apartment at her shop and they have a deep discussion regarding metaphysics and the Mind sphere
IC Date September 9th, 2020
IC Time Midday/Early Afternoon
Players Bobbi and Vic
Location Angel Restorations
Spheres Traditions
4Sept2020, during or after the weekly meeting of Tradition Mages and Sorcerers...

It took a minute, explaining things a few times, and pointing out what should have been obvious to most, but eventually Bobbi came to understand that Vic was the same Vic that had e-mailed her, and that they were both in the same meeting. Once that was cleared up, plans were made for Vic to come over to Bobbi's loft for a lesson -- though at this point, Vic may well have been having second thoughts about learning anything from this space cadet.


Deep in NorthEast Prospect, there is a fair amount of gentrification creating 'up-and-coming' neighborhoods from base matter. There are eco homes, yoga studio, vegan restaurants, and young couples just starting families. To get to Bobbi's loft, you need to keep driving past these into areas that are textbook examples of urban blight. Gangs and drug crime is ubiquitous and obvious, a dangerous element wandering between abandoned storefronts, vacant lots, and failing industry.

Just when one might be wondering if this is a good idea, an oasis of calm emerges. The gangs and drug crime seem to disappear, replaced by 'Neighborhood Watch' signs clearly visible under working street lights. There is a shelter and tent city in this corner of the city, yet somehow the homeless here seem more together, as if they merely view their situation as a temporary setback rather than their lot in life.

Rising above a fenced in barbed-wire lot is a sign for 'Angel Restorations,' the name of the garage that Bobbi had indicated she owns. In the lot is a tow truck, white panel van, a Subaru, and a number of motorcycles of all types, some looking quite expensive and customized. There's a small crowd at a bar named 'Emerson's' which is also within the lot, many people enjoying the evening as they drink and talk craft beer. Local papers had recently called 'Emerson's' Prospect's 'craft beer mecca,' and the fact that it can draw people in from outside of the community is a small miracle and an indication that gentrification might soon tough this neighborhood as well. 'Angel Restorations' itself is locked up, but a figure can be seen moving around through the second floor floor-to-ceiling windows.

The stairs above the garage is where Bobbi said she lived, and a knock on the door elicits a "just a sec!" from a friendly and familiar voice. "Welcome, welcome, please come in," Bobbi says with a smile as she opens the door to find Vic. Barefooted, today she's wearing denim short-short overalls -- the pockets just peeking out from the bottom of the short-shorts -- over a form-fitting slightly threadbare 'Cookie Monster' T-Shirt. "I hope you didn't have any trouble finding the place," Bobbi says as she makes her way inside, "can I get you anything? Tea? Snacks? Anything?"

Wearing her typical army shirt over tee with jeans and hiking boots, Vic's selected shirt today has a geeky math reference on it - possibly not the first time Bobbi's seen this shirt. "It was super easy, barely an inconvenience," she says about finding the place, restraining herself from commenting that it isn't her first time visiting, and then says, "Something savory as I had a pastry for breakfast and non-caffeinated soda, please," in response to the offer of food and drinks. She also says, "I have an update regarding the Hydra also," referencing a previous conversation the pair had.

"Oh, glad to hear that," Bobbi says as she makes her way towards the refrigerator. "Some people get a little wary of the neighborhood," Bobbi explains as she opens the fridge and begins looking through, "so hopefully you're first visit won't be your last. It is really is a safe place." Bobbi leans into the fridge, pulling out a can that she places on the counter. Then turning around and standing up, the fridge still open, Bobbi says, "best I can do for soda is a plain seltzer water, hope that's ok. In terms of savory, how do you feel about spicy food? I mean, it's not super spicy, but sometimes spicy period does not agree with some people. Poor bastards."

Vic feels the need to remind Bobbi now. "This is my second visit here actually, but no really worries," she says and then, "Spicy's good. And I wouldn't want soda anyway, got any good drinking water instead?"

"Oh, huh?" Bobbi says as she furrows her brow trying to recall this information. "Was I here?" she begins quietly wonder, before exclaiming, "Oh yeah! The Hydra thing, that's right. Sorry, I can be a bit spacey sometimes." Bobbi glances to the seltzer, unsure on that response, "Do you not have seltzer where you're from? It's like carbonated water, very refreshing. Some people get flavors in theirs, but I don't, I like it plain. Other option is tap water, which is really good here. The person who setup my water was a specialist in water." Bobbi probably means something by this last bit, but she doesn't give any indication of what that might be. Turning back to the fridge, Bobbi pulls out a Tupperware, spooning out it's contents into a small pan. Leaning over slightly, she turns on her stove, the gas range coming to life beneath the pan.

"We have it, yes," Vic replies about the seltzer, "But I don't like sparkly water without healty doses of flavor and sweetner." She also smiles about the ditziness of her dreadlocked friend. "And yes, the 'Hydra thing'. He'd be willing to meet you if you give your word that you'll keep his identity secret. I've given him my word for the same but have his permission to tell you if you give me an oath regarding this." Her word choice is obviously a call out to the Protocols.

"Oh, well I could always turn it into that," Bobbi suggets as she stirs the food -- something reddish involving chickpeas, "what flavor would you like?" As she stirs, she quietly muses, "Do you think people would be more or less into soda pop if it was called 'sparkling syrup' ? I'm personally not sure, almost want to start a business to find out." Bobbi nods lightly. "of course," she says to Vic, "while I myself might be an open book for the most part. I know the importance of keeping certain things secret -- be they my own or others. The fact that I am still alive, should be assurances that I speak the truth on these matters. In fact, in some cases I have been on the tasked with organizing a response to others revealing legitimate secrets. Of course, that's about all I can say on those matters." Getting up on her tippie-toes, Bobbi pulls down two bowls, before reaching into a drawer for silverwear.

"No, like I said, with spicy food I'd rather have plain water," Vic replies about the offer. She nods and steps up to where the bowls are being prepaired. "Understandable, I'd never ask you to violate a promise that way," she says plainly. "By the way, ran into this guy at the Nexus... not a vampire but long canine teeth... can't recall his name but he and I talked about Mind. Had some insights that I think will help me, also suggested I work with others." She shakes her head and says, "Damnit, arcane or cloaking... either way it sucks."

"Oh, ok," Bobbi notes as she opens a cupboard, pulling out a glass and handing it to Vic. "If they were in The Nexus," Bobbi begins to explain, "they have made it past the Wards. Despite the persistent rumors about Eloise being a Secret Vampire, as far as I know none in the Traditions are actually Vampires. If there is one of our kind that is a Vampire or someone made it past the Wards? Well, then that's a big problem, and I'm sure it will soon come to a head. Even though it sounds like this mystery man is safe, I would encourage you to be aware of who it is you are meeting with, especially if you're allowing them to shape your thinking." Bobbi hmmms as she turns of the burner, and begins to set out to portions from the pan using a large wooden spoon. "Anything ese you can remember about them?" Bobbi wonders as she hands Vic a bowl with a fork in it and explains, "my favmous Channa Masallah."

"Oh no! He's definitely living," Vic says, "I was able to scope him out. Living and an awakened Avatar Bobbi, this guy was totally a mage. Just... don't remember his name." She frowns and shakes her head. "He had goggles, almost like an Etherite's and..." Vic pauses her answer and grins, "... I remember him being kind of cute if a bit animalistic looking."

"hmmmm," Bobbi says as she pours a water for both of them. Handing Vic her water, Bobbi grabs her own plate and water, and says, "Couch?" Without waiting to see if this idea is protested -- though why would it be? Bobbi makes her way over to the couch. Taking a seat on the couch, she pulls her legs up and under her, placing her water on the ground beside her, and her bowl on her lap. Scrunching up her forehead as she stares at her bowl of channa massalah, Bobbi begins to quietly mutter, "goggles, goggles ... goggles ... hmmm ... oh! Merek?" Bobbi looks to Vic to see if this name jogs her memory.

Vic takes the food and drink after setting her bag down first and joins Bobbi on the couch. "Yeah! That's the name," she exclaims, "Odd that he was cloaking in the Nexus but maybe it was me more than him, me and my out of phase mentality."

As it gets confirmed that it's Merek, Bobbi scrunches her face lightly, giving the distinct impression that she might not be the biggest fan of this person. "That is a bit odd," Bobbi agrees, as she gently stirs her bowl of indian food, "but then again, us will-workers are known for being strange and doing strange things, both on purpose and by accident. Something that you just need to accept if you want to remain sane."

Vic snerks softly at that and nods. "Yeah, you've got that right," she says and then takes a bite of the meal Bobbi prepared. "Mmmm," is her first reaction after which she points at it with her utensil and, smiling, says, "This is very good, thanks."

Bobbi smiles as Vic confirms she enjoys the food, something she's heard many times before, but still looks to hear from each new person -- not out of insecurity, but out of hospitality. With enjoyment noted, Bobbi herself begins to eat some of the food from her bowl. "Are you taking him on his suggestion to learn from many?" Bobbi wonders, "and if so have you tracked down others? I could see use in getting many perspectives on something, but also at the same time there's likely to be conflicting schools of thought, and that might just confuse the matters. In the end, I think what you need to do is make the understanding your own, so it's up to you to figure out how many points of view are helpful for this. Personally, I would not try learning extensively for more than two or three people."

"That's what I'd figured on doing," Vic says. "I got his views on the basics of mind, I was going to get your's still and at most two others'. I already know of one other, was going to see if a V-Dept I know had any thoughts on the matter also," she adds with a grin at the word play at the end there.

"Sure, we can arrange that," Bobbi says with a smile as she eats her food. "Vertigo is the Seat of Correspondence," Bobbi begins to explain, "besides that I've met Rufus, Nelo, and Zagy. Of course there's also Joel, but I haven't seen him in a long time, plus, fuck Joel. Nelo and Zagy I only see ocassionally, and they seemed a bit green. Vertigo and Rufus are both people that I could see being useful teachers, provided they know what you need to know."

"I was thinking of Rufus specifically," Vic says. "I've met him and I've communicated with Vertigo. Nelo and Zagy I've never heard of. Joel I've heard of... as a corrupted 'fucknugget'." That last she is obviously something someone else said to her about the other V-Dept.

"Rufus is good people," Bobbi confirms as she reaches down and to pick up her glass and take a sip of her water. "Joel?" she begins say, "perhaps 'fucknugget' is getting off lightly. He was a straight bully from the John Bolton school of getting ahead. Not sure if you had him in your world, but the basic idea is to kiss him, and punch down. Charming. Besides being a bully, he also seemed to be incompetent. Falsely accused me of some indiscretions -- twice -- and got the Council to look into me. He was so wrong on the issues, that they ended up investigating him because of it, and leaving me be. No apology from anyone, though. He claimed he was just doing this to protect the Traditions. That's what he said in public. What he said to me in private? He just called me a 'tattooed freak.' Can't say I'm sad that he hasn't been seen much of late. I sort of guaranteed though that if he returns he's neutered."

Vic frowns. "Sounds like the term fits pretty well," she says before intentionally changing subjects. "But, talking about jerks wasn'w why we were going to meet," she says and then asks, "We were planning on talking about Mind," before eating more of her food.

"Right," Bobbi says with a single emphatic nod. "Now obviously we do our thing in slightly different ways," she begins to say, "so it's best for you to take the information I present and ask questions and work to make it your own, rather than me trying to figure out how to say things in your way, which I'd probably get wrong. Make sense?"

"That absolutely makes sense," Vic replies. "Although a lot of what Merek explained to me resonates well with my thinking but I'd love to hear your point of view also because I do believe that compiling multiple view points will allow me to distill them into a purer understanding."

"One of the guiding principles of Hermeticism," Bobbi begins to say, "and something you see in a number of other esoteric systems is the idea of 'As Above, So Below.' Are you familiar with this concept? This can be applied in a number of ways, but it can be restated as 'As it happens on Heaven, it happens on Earth' or that 'what occurs in the micro, occurs in the macro.' This is meant to both explain similarities and 'coincidences,' but also to give a system to creating greater change. Any questions or thoughts about this part before I move to the next one? I promise, this will all connect to Mind, just needing to setup some basic understandings."

Vic takes a sip of water between bites of the meal while listening to this. She then nods. "Sure, makes perfect sense. Like fractals. The big picture looks ultra complex but when you soom in you see that all that complexity is made up of smaller duplications of the overall image."

"Yes, a fractal is a very good way of understanding this," Bobbi says with a light nod, "there are some other ways to, either in addition or as substitution. In the next step, I believe you'll likely immediately note how this might also connect to a 'Holographic' conception." Bobbi pauses to take a sip of her water. "Next we have the Tree of Life," Bobbi continues to explain, "which is what the Kaballah, and thus many Hermetics say is the true 7-Dimensional structure of the Universe. The Tree of Life is composed of the Sephirot, and the Sephirot is what the Sphere system is based on. There are some issues with how exactly they connect, so it's not a precise one-to-one mapping, but it gives you a general idea. At one end of the Tree, you have the three Spiritual Spheres, these give way to three Physical Spheres, though given the law of 'As Above, So Below," these three also have a Spiritual element. Then from there you have the three more primary Physical Spheres, what we call the 'Pattern Spheres.' Of course there is a tenth Sephirot -- and perhaps more -- and we'll get into that a bit as it's relevant. Before I do that, would you like to take a guess at these three groupings of three? I already told you the last grouping is the Pattern Spheres -- Life, Matter, Forces, so what do you think the other three groupings might be?"

Vic answers with her own understanding, "Time and Space... Correspondence... are a pairing and Mind and Spirit are another pairing. The physical trio, plus Time and Space make up Order, Entropy... or Chaos... opposes that. Mind and Spirit are more spiritual and Prime is harnessing of Quintessence thus binding it all together."

Listening to Vic, Bobbi gives a slight nod and said, "As I said, there's not a one-to-one mapping, and the Sphere system is not the Sephirot, and the use of such is a convenience, but let me give you a way to look at this." Bobbi takes another sip of her water, and says, "Another key Hermetic principle is 'All is Mind' and this in part refers to a universal mind which contains all. Because of that we put 'Mind' at the top, as it gives way to all. If Mind is the singular all, division must be represented by Entropy, so this is the next Sphere. With difference in the Mind we begin to recognize independent platonic Thought forms, what we call Spirit. Differentiation and realization of difference means a separation. This gives way to Time and Corresondence? Which one comes first, that would be getting a bit esoteric for now, so just know these are the next two. We now have the higher Spiritual forms and this sort of Physical yet Spiritual space in which the Physical can eventually exist. Because of this what we have next is Prime the spark of the divine coming from the Mind that we find deeply connecting to the three Pattern Spheres. First among these three is Forces, one could call this an emergent property of Time and Space that contains the spark of the Divine represented by Prime. Matter is next, for what is Matter but the Forces in a slower vibration grouping together. And from Matter? Well eventually the chemical soup gives way to Life. That is the way the nine Spheres proceed from the All mind to create the Spiritual and the Physical, according to what Hermeticism teaches in the Kaballah. Now if these nine give way to a tenth sphere, what do you think it might be?"

Vic nods slong though this explination, and along the way when Forces, Time and Space are being discussed she quietly mouths 'E equals M C squared' but didn't voice it so as not to interrupt. She does wink at the same time however.

"I have serious problems with the discussions of the 'tenth sphere' because you've already left out one and that's a problem because Data is not the same as Correspondence because its functionality diverges fairly quickly and the fact that distance is an issue for an orthodox V-Dept while a heterodox V-Dept like myself, using Data, doesn't have distance as a factor... but we're not doing space as much as information. Thus the different name. So, the tenth sphere is Data I guess.... but it doesn't fill your question because a person cannot have both Correspondence /and/ Data."

"I will get to that," Bobbi notes, "it's actually an advanced topic, and one that is quite interesting with me. I'll also note that there is another problem with Correspondence, that I will adress shortly. Let's just put that on hold for now though, because as I noted these are not a one-to-one mapping. The tenth Sphere is not Data, that is something else. No, to get to the tenth Sphere, we need to look at this chain of Spheres leading to other Spheres, and ask ourselves? What could Life give way to? Well, there's a clear answer: Mind. 'As Above, So Below.' Mind is the first Sphere and the tenth Sphere."

"Now this is something I think you will find very interesting," Bobbi says to Vic with a smile, "What would any Virtual Adept notice about Mind being the first and tenth sphere. One and One, Zero. Binary. Now the question is what is Sphere 'Zero.' This is what's known as the 'imaginary' Sephirot. 'Da'at', also called Death by some. If the All Mind is one, the personal Mind is one, zero, and Death is zero, what does this imply? That the difference between the all mind and the personal mind is that one contains the concept of death and the other has the concept of death as separate from it. This is the way Hermetics think of the structure of the Universe, and you see that 'Mind' is a very interesting concept to us. Now, I can explain to you how Data fits into all of this, but put that aside for the moment. Do you have any particular questions or comments or thoughts on this structure as described so far?"

"No, the ideas make sense," Vic replies to the question. "Although I see the spheres as being a bit more interconnected rather than a linear progression like your description sounds like to me." She asks, "Was that the intention?" before taking another bite of the meal.

"It can be seen as both," Bobbi notes to Vic, "as I mentioned, the first Sphere Mind as the 'All Mind' contains all other Spheres within it, the idea of separation being more of a product of the personal Mind, though it can also perceive both. We connect all the Spheres with twenty two named path ways, so there is an inherent connection between all of them. What we talk in giving way to another is how the proceeded from the All Mind, but now in being they are connected. Another way to better understand both the connection and how they precede from each other, it is useful to understand the Dimensional structure of the Spheres."

"We start with the first Mind Sphere, the All Mind," Bobbi continues to explain, "this is to be understood as a zero-dimensional point. How is a point zero-dimensional? How is there an All Mind? There is much esoteric discussin of this, but best for now to refer to is as a 'Mystery' with a capital M. Now, hopefully you had a book called 'Flatland' where you're from, but at the very least you'll likely be familiar with certain shapes like a Klein bottle, and what not. Anyway, the point is that we twist this zero-dimensional point into a one-dimensional point. These zero-dimensional point contains the one-dimensional point, that is their connection and their separation. We see both as existing at the same time. Now the zero-dimensional is twisted into the first-dimensional which we now twist into a second-dimension, which gives us another sphere. The second dimension can be represented as the second and third sphere, both emerging from the first zero-dimensional sphere. Now, I'll leave this as a visualization excercise, but we twist from zero to first to second, onward, until we reach a total of a seven dimensional shape. That is the totality of the Spheres, the totality of the Universe is the structure of the All Mind in seven dimensions. The All Mind thus contains all Spheres, and the division of Spheres is a shortcut to explain the mystery of a seven dimensional structure of a zero dimension 'point.' I told you it get's esoteric, but at least you can see how both those concepts make sense within it."

Vic grins at the mention of Flatland and nods. "Edwin A. Abbott was a genius and could easily have been a Virtual Adept but the book predated Turning's birth by decades even," she says on that subject and then gets a shocked and awed expression on her face though the rest of the explanation. She shakes her head no at the end and says, "Esoteric yes, but it makes so much sense actually."

"I thought it might be something that would make sense to you," Bobbi says to Vic with a smile, "now you see if we're thinking about in terms of this particular structure, that even if there is more than just 'one gives way to another' there still are certain inherent mathematical structure between their connections which must exist by the definition of it's shape, right? And as you twist further and further, it's not necessarily one Sphere emerging, but potentially more Spheres, as well as their connections, each new dimensional structure made up of both the emerging parts and the prior parts. I spoke of Prime as being like a spark of the 'divine' All Mind that is found in the three Pattern spheres, and you see structurally a certain connection that runs directly from Mind to Prime, and then the positioning of Prime to the three Pattern Spheres, is like the positioning of Mind to the other spheres. This is actually part of the basis of Gnostic cosmology, which again is an Esoteric point that we can get into later, but I'm trying to get us to Data, so any questions here before I get to that?"

Vic nods. "And bringing us to Mind at some point," she says, proving that the All Mind bit, if that was the point isn't clicking properly for her. "Not that this isn't all fascinating anyway of course," she explains.

"Hmm, well if Mind is causing you an issue," Bobbi notes to Vic, "let's stick with that for a moment. That's the point of why we're doing this ostensibly, and given that all these points assume certain structural things about Mind and others, it's better to have an understanding regarding these 'basics,' before moving on to 'Data' and the other new Spheres." Had Vic not previously known this, Bobbi has now hinted that 'Data' is not the only newer Sphere that is left out of this structure.

Vic cocks an eyebrow at the hint of even more spheres but also nods. "The overall interrelationship is interesting but I may be as green as the guys you mentioned earlier... Nelo and Zagy you said I believe? I've basic knowledge of a number of Spheres but I'm mostly focused on Data."

"Let's for now leave out Data," Bobbi notes to Vic, "just for a minute, as I think it would cause some confusion, but I think this will help us setup discussing that. Instead of calling it 'All Mind,' let's call the first Sphere 'Computer.' Now imagine that all of these other Spheres could in some way be said to be being simulated 'Software' within the Hardware of 'Computer.' Now you would build up this program, by building structure upon structure. In that way, one proceeds from the other. At the same time, once the 'Software' is complete and running, they are instead completely connected, and it matters less-and-less what proceeds from what. While there could still be said to be 'Computer' first, what is 'Hardware' without 'Software,' they are separate in their way, but intimately connected in others. That final sphere of 'Personal Mind,' is instead 'Simulated Mind.' The 'Computer' connects to the 'Simulated' mind in the sense that the brain has a computational structure similar to 'Computer.' In addition, we can connect another 'Tree of Life' at the bottom. This would be the 'Simulated Mind' creating a 'Simulated Computer' within 'Computer,' and having this structure continue. Yet within a simulation, 'Simulated Computer' is seen just as 'Computer.' Just as in this chained structure we can say that 'Simulated Mind' gives way to 'Simulated Computer' -- which sees itself as 'Computer,' we could also say that that initial 'Computer' comes from a prior 'Mind.' Though this 'Computer' and 'Mind' may very well be simulated as well, just at a different level of simulation. This chain can continue infinitely. There may at some point be an original 'Computer', an unsimulated one, and perhaps there is an unsimulated Mind before it, but within a simulation how do you connect to conceive of the prior layers of simulation? At some point we need to say there is an 'unsimulated' layer, say that all layers are 'simulated', say that this stretches infinitely in both directions, or just leave it at 'Mystery.' So when us Hermetics talk about the 'All Mind' and 'As Above, So Below,' and the way things are connected and proceed from each other, the Virtual Adept might instead conceive of this as 'simulation theory,' 'hardware,' and 'software.'"

Vic's expression, while controlled and subdued, also clearly shows a dawning of understanding. "That does make a lot of sense," she says, "Simulation theory as an explination for the tree of life. Its the first time that Kabalastic theory fully made sense." She has, during that explination finished her meal and sets the dishes aside after finishing her water also. "That's amazing Bobbi," she says. "And, so... you see Mind as over all everything but beneath everything, like the source of a computer and the results of a computer's actions?" she asks trying to sum it all up in the end.

"Hey, it's the first time that Simulation theory made sense to me," Bobbi says with a laugh, "I kinda had the realization of everything I said just then right before I said it. Good thing you were patient enough to help a random girl with Computers at a Cafe one day, huh? But yeah, close to that. I think to flesh out the connection, we would need to also talk about 'state' as well as 'awareness' or 'consciousness' as this sort of emergent property within the computer, which is capable of furthering the simulation to another layer. Then you could talk about the 'imaginary' Sphere of Death as being something like a 'reboot.' This makes no change to the simulating computer, and the software will run again and achieve new results and state, creating that simulated mind again. But the experience of the simulated mind is that it confuses what it is -- the structure of the software -- versus it's current state as defining it. Being able to let your understanding of your existence become that of understanding the structure of your software as opposed to your current state -- though without discarding that state -- is what us acid heads refer to as 'ego death.'"

Vic shakes her head again. "And now I'm lost again," she says, "Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as I aught to be." She looks and sounds truly confused. "Almost sounds like Euthanatos teachings I've heard hints of, am I right?" she asks.

"We can skip that part," Bobbi says, before adding, "There's connections to the Euthanatos, but the ones most interested in that Sphere are the Nephandi. Structurally another Tree, the Tree of Death is supposedly accessible at that point. I'd have to think a while about it and probably learn more about computers to understand how that connects to this. So yeah, let's just skip that as an esoteric side note for now. A dark recess that is dangerous to explore. The point though is that if the mind we call are our own is something that arises from a simulation, the software that gave rise to that mind continues to exist after the software program exits. We might get attached to this particular instance of mind, but given that this Tree structure repeats infinitely, that means that even as we are dying, there are infinite more versions of us in all different phases of their existence. We often say that our Life is like a dream of the All Mind, whih is to say our Life is like a running instance of software. When we dream we do not worry about our memories of our real life, and when we awaken we do not worry too much about remembering the dream we just had. Fearing death is thus like fearing waking up or fearing falling asleep."

Vic nods and says, "Alright, I see that analogy." She leans back on the sofa and says, "This is all very esoteric however as you've said. But its also extremely good food for thought."